Ethics | Anti-Natalism

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atreestump
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Ethics | Anti-Natalism

Post by atreestump »

This topic is very sensitive and controversial, I don't intend to offend anyone, but I can understand why it can come across as offensive.

What is Anti-Natalism?

The phrase from the German pessimist, Arthur Shopenhauer best encapsulates what anti-natalism is all about - 'Better never to have been born'. In more recent times, South African philosopher, David Benetar released a book in 2006 entitled 'Better Never to have Been : The Harm of Coming into Existence'.

To better explain what these phrases mean, we have to start from an existential position (one that starts from existence and all meaning is a posteriori, existence preceeds essence) that suffering, pain and death are the only qualities of life that any one person, animal, or any form of sentience can be guaranteed to experience during a life time and that given this is true we begin to base our ethics in a negative utilitarian sense.

Unlike positive utilitarianism which holds the maxim, 'I should act if and only if my actions lead to happiness of others', negative utilitarianism reverses this and asserts 'I should act if and only if my actions lead to less harm and suffering.'

We also need another existential premise that only a living being who has been born, any form of sentience that is, is capable of desire and valuing. Needs are created whenever a new sentient being is born, they need to eat, have shelter, clothing, clean water and then they develop desires as they get older and will consume, produce and will eventually grow older and older and experience pain and suffering, as well as satisfaction. Satisfaction always leads to more desire, desire is never fulfilled.

As for other sentient beings that are other than human, mainly insects for example, they often live very short lives that have no purpose other than to reproduce and they die either immediately, through starvation, or worse, they become food for other animals.

Over-population

Anti-Natalism tackles the problem of over-populating the planet. There are as of 2015, around 7.3 billion human beings on the planet. The principle concern is resources. Poverty and inequality is the highest and most divided in human history, climate change is irreversible and the potential for war, famine, climate refugees, lack of employment and many other long term problems that offer fewer and fewer prospects of progress and improvement are likely to unfold in ways that are beyond our control.

Basic assertion

Given that there are no guarantees that the future will hold positive prospects and that no individual can possibly change the world on their own, survival becomes difficult without passing on our genes. Given that sentience is the only thing that can create value, need and desire, we can't say that a non-existent being who is not yet concieved through sexual reproduction has any say, that the desire to reproduce is a selfish (or rather autonomous) decision on behalf of the would-be-parent of the one who is yet to be conceived.


The basic principle of Anti-Natalism then, is that it is unethical given the absolute guarantee of suffering and inability to prevent harm, to bring a sentient being into existence.


Assymmetry

The argument is best shown using a kind of game theory, it's called a zero-sum game. It's very similar to Prisoners Dillemma, so each player has to act rationally.



Argument

Scenario A where x exists shows how the presence of pain is bad and how the presence of pleasure is good. Okay so far, nice and simple.

Scenario B however, where x does not exist reveals how pain is absent and this is a good - obviously as x does not exist and so can't be harmed in any way. Then we have to consider whether or not the absence of pleasure is good or bad. Well, given that x doesn't even exist it can't even experience it.

Before I explain the conclusion, let's say we have a doughnut that we enjoy and it gives us pleasure and let's say someone who is torturing us by sticking knives under our toe nails gives us pain. Not hard to see how this gives us good and bad. Now let's say we didn't eat a doughnut, we are neither in pleasure but we are not in pain either. Let's say we are not being tortured any more, or we were never tortured - that's always a good, or more good than before.

So x not existing to eat the doughnut and not existing to have knives under toe nails gives us an assymmetry. Not having pleasure is niether good nor bad, it's just not bad.

Usual counter-argument

Absence of pleasure is bad! Is usually the way people repond, but think about it for a moment. Not being in pain is good, obviously, but not eating a doughnut is niether harmful, nor is it pleasureable, it's just not bad.

Implications

The assymmetry looks perplexing at first. The zero-sum game of pleasure being absent as bad, does not contemplate how a non-existent being is incapable of desiring a doughnut in the first place and so creates sentience in the belief that procreation allows others to experience pleasure and this comes purely from a selfish decision to procreate. It does not, cannot, come from the desire of a never existent being.

By not bringing someone into existence, we certainly don't immediately improve the over all suffering as that is beyond our control in the most general sense. What we can do however, is not add to the problems. This is the basic principles of anti-natalism.

Pleasure outweighs pain!

Another objection is that if we are lucky, we can tally the goods with the bads and a life with more goods was probably worth living. Anti-natalism does not deny the existence of goods, but it can't guarantee it, it can only guarantee that we will eventually all suffer at some point and die. In developing countries and in more poverty stricken areas of the developed world, pain and suffering are more likely and so pro-creation definitely does more harm than good as parents have to provide, thier life becomes a burden. On the other hand, better off people tend to consume more stuff than a mass of poorer people and this puts a strain on resources for everyone. Rich or poor, no one can avoid climate change, pollution, disease and war if it occurs.

The assymmetry contains the maxim of 'better never to have been born' as not harming and not having pleasure are both good and not bad. Existing contains bad and good and so loses the game of rational choice.

Other objections

Traditional thinking within any society is that having children is what we live for and not having them would make life meaningless. This is easily tackled, what I call the Simpsons argument - 'Wont someone please think of the children?" when we remember that sentience creates value and although the desire to pro-create was around before we ourselves were born, it is only a desire. We can choose to have or not to have children, but if we do it is because of our own selfish choice. A non-existent being does not have choice, it has no say until it is born.

Relative problems need relative solutions

While we could take negative utilitarianism and anti-natalism to the extreme of ending life gracefully, not only not bringing more life into existence, but to end humanity for it's own good, I want to stress that the problem is only a problem while it is a problem.

If people stopped having more children, then resources would not be as strained as they are and will become. If people stopped producing more children in poor countries, they would not be so easily exploited by global capitalism. If women stopped having children for now, it actually serves as a positive feminist issue in that it eradicates the roles of a woman as a mother through natural obligation. If we stop having children, we can do more with our own lives instead of trying to raise children in an increasingly uncertain economy. If population started to drop, there would be less panic as a whole. If it dropped low enough and there was too few of us and there was enough to go around and the environment was stable, then by all means - have children again, but within the limits of what is possible to sustain.

A here and now solution

Not acting is a form of action. This is a simple solution that anyone can understand and it's something that can be done by everyone to stop adding to the global problems and to generally improve life for themselves and others.


Hope that was clear enough, I want to remind everyone I am not trying to offend anyone and it really is up to yourselves whether you choose to have or not have children. If you do, make sure it's for the right reasons.
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Re: Ethics | Anti-Natalism

Post by Socrates »

This one always gets discussions going, bumped.
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atreestump
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Re: Ethics | Anti-Natalism

Post by atreestump »

Grave digging this thread.
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kFoyauextlH
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Re: Ethics | Anti-Natalism

Post by kFoyauextlH »

Weirdly it didn't prompt much in the way of discussion, but:

https://forum.effectivealtruism.org/pos ... ts-of-anti

"
This linked post is what I plan to be the start of a series exploring the history and component values of this ideological bundle, which I have named R9PRESENTATIONALism--it stands for the following:

Relational
9P
Postcritical
Personalist
Praxeological
Psychoanalytic
Participatory
Performative
Particularist
Processional
Positive/Affirmationist
Reparative
Existentialist
Standpoint-theorist
Embodied
Narrativistic
Therapeutic
Anthropological
Traditionalist
Intersectional
Orate
Natalist
Activist
Localist

This bundle originated out of anti-Calvinist polemics written by Catholic and royalist Anglican writers during the early modern period, was picked up by 19th century romantic reactionaries to build the foundation of the emerging Counter-Enlightenment, got carried into the 20th century by various counter-modern literary movements seeking a third way against both capitalism and socialism which could justify the continuing relevance of the traditional humanistic disciplines against the new challenge of the social and psychological sciences, transitioned from being primarily of the political right to the political left due to the ideological aftermaths of WW2 and 1968, and took on its modern form in environmental and anti-globalization activism in the 90s. It is the actual source of the post-60s ideological transformation against the ideas of rationality, science, objectivity, and progress on the left which most people erroneously attribute to "postmodernism" or "critical theory" or the "New Left" or so forth, and it is the often-unspoken foundation behind essentially all ideological challenges against EA, AI safety, YIMBYism, and technological progress from the left and the academic establishment.

I plan on working through this intellectual history over the next few months to unpack exactly what this bundle entails, the motivations behind it, and the reasons why it has become so pervasive in the last half-century. My hope is that having a clear name for this phenomenon will clean up a lot of the confused current discourse about what things are and are not "anti-progress" or so forth; in reality, I think what we will find is that this stream of thought is both much wider and much narrower than most people believe, in that it actually has surprisingly little to do with any of the intellectual lineages that its proponents claim to subscribe to (Marxism, poststructuralism, feminism, conflict studies, etc.) but is a shockingly pervasive influence across modern culture to a greater degree than even most people who complain about it realize.
"

https://www.erudit.org/en/journals/bioe ... 8904ar.pdf
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kFoyauextlH
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Re: Ethics | Anti-Natalism

Post by kFoyauextlH »





A weird extra one, hopefully you don't mind too much, but I think aspects may be related if they can be applied:





They are not making bringing a child into a war zone seem like a good idea if one is going to care about their child not suffering. The current culture is also grestly damaging any, especially children, exposed to it.





There seem to be so many openings for bad results by taking the risk.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Designer_baby

https://wiki.ubc.ca/Designer_babies

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CRISPR_gene_editing

Who will give birth to the people to save our kind? Who will give birth to more enemies working against human survival and comfort? They tell us the conditions are worse than perhaps ever for a good life with good prospects for a child, and that it is getting so bad that we would wish we were never born!

https://terminator.fandom.com/wiki/John_Connor
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kFoyauextlH
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Re: Ethics | Anti-Natalism

Post by kFoyauextlH »



The media fixates on stories like these but in reality and across the world mass demographic manipulation and g*n*c*d* occurs without even being noticed, causing indirect and so concealed collateral child deaths in numbers far exceeding anything given so much focus by the news can match, but since it ends up just being hard to grasp numbers with no particular faces or too many faces to comprehend what is going on, the psycho-killer eugenicists get away with mass murders that they are consciously and deliberately bringing about, while the people waste their time concerned about one or two violent mental cases and one or two killed or harmed babies, particularly if they are babies that are from or resemble the elite class spawn rather than the huge numbers massacred, deprived of any way to continue to live or flourish, handicapped if they survive, children of the "others" and "outsiders" or "foreigners" even within the nations of the people but never considered truly part of the population that some want surviving. Making a huge fuss over one child and being told to ignore and shut up about maiming and murder in the millions worldwide remains something difficult to even process and the people doing it aren't generally publicized or known, so the people show their love of humanity by burning effigies and punishing a patsy, making a scapegoat sacrifice instead of exposing, identifyinh, and putting all resources towards eliminating a much more prolific problem. Yet it isn't a problem for the elite, and which they would like to inform us, but can't be frank, is a solution since their system and modeling regarding their systems and what their systems and cities and production rates can sustain along with profitibility for themselves can not manage massive amounts of people too quickly, so in order to balance things out, kill the most foreign ones, needy ones, the ones who would be a waste of resources, unproductive, useless, destroyinh entire genetic lines and futures by wiping out generations of people ahead of time, even though there is ample land and ample resources, but all energy is concentrated into batteries which are the economic hubs and resource hoarding nodes. This somehow was not an issue for hundreds of thousands of years balanced by nature and distance, and this resource and human concentration system has made everything disregulated, yet they persist with this plan which has barely been in action and is already a disaster for most of us.

I believe it is the human right of all people to lash out how and where and when they can, but the best deserving of the wrath of mankind hide away or are lost in the crowd, but certain things can bring to light who is who, and their children are their heirs, undergoing brainwashing as we discuss the matter, to prepare them to callously follow through on the plan of gardening and culling the hunan population like so many crops.

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kFoyauextlH
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Re: Ethics | Anti-Natalism

Post by kFoyauextlH »

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_p ... t_children







https://i.postimg.cc/4N8LK4pD/1000146814.png



https://i.postimg.cc/85Vt87SV/1000146815.png



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Culling



Culting





Heroic Neighbour Climbs Building to Rescue Toddler - Hanging from 7th-floor balcony!
Newsnercom•3M views•3 years ago

Last edited by kFoyauextlH on Fri Mar 06, 2026 5:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
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kFoyauextlH
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Re: Ethics | Anti-Natalism

Post by kFoyauextlH »



"
Watson, along with Jones and InfoWars as a whole, originally covered conspiracy theories such as chemtrails, the New World Order and the Illuminati. By the mid-2010s their coverage increasingly shifted to criticising feminism, Islam and left-wing politics.[9] Watson has been described as a member of "the new far-right" by The New York Times, which wrote in August 2017 that his "videos are straightforward nativist polemics, with a particular focus on Europe" and convey his opposition to modernist architecture and modern art.[16] Iman Abou Atta, director of the anti-Islamophobia group Tell MAMA, has said that Watson "has become 'the' nexus for anti-Muslim accounts that we have mapped... He has become an influencer in promoting information—much of it bizarre and untrue—which has been regurgitated by anti-Muslim and anti-migrant accounts time and time again."[17]

Immigration
edit
Watson is anti-immigration.[1][45] He has claimed[46] that "Malmö is known as 'Sweden's Chicago'" due to mass immigration into the country.[47] According to a study published in Critical Studies in Media Communication, this claim is false.[48]

In 2022 Watson criticised French president Emmanuel Macron and France's African migrant communities following the murder of a man in Paris.[11]

Islam
edit
Watson is opposed to Islam.[45][49][50] He has labelled Muslim culture "horrific" and declared that it produces mass rape, "Islamic ghettos" and the destruction of Western culture.[1] Watson has said that the western world needs "Islam control" rather than gun control. In an InfoWars article, Watson wrote, "Muslims living in both the Middle East and the west show alarmingly high levels of support for violent jihad"[51] and that there is "violent oppression of gays and Christians in the Middle East".[52] In August 2017 he said that YouTube had blocked monetisation on all his videos about Islam as part of the website's policies dealing with hate speech, and on other subjects including modern art.[53]

Race and ethnicity
edit
Watson has criticised perceived racial tokenism.[54] In 2017 he criticised the BBC for "portraying Roman Britain as ethnically diverse" after the broadcaster included a black Roman centurion in an educational cartoon. His criticism was contradicted by Mary Beard and the Faculty of Classics at the University of Cambridge, saying there was overwhelming evidence that Roman Britain was a multi-ethnic society.[55]

In May 2022 Byline Times and the Southern Poverty Law Center published an account of a recording apparently of Watson at a party saying: "I really think you should press the button to wipe (them) off the face of the Earth" and making other homophobic and racist comments, such as saying: "I care about white people and not sand nigger Paki *** f*ggot c**ns". The recording has been confirmed by three secondary sources. In response, Joe Mulhall of Hope not Hate said that while Watson was careful to follow social media platform moderation policy, it was not surprising that he would express such views in private.[56][11]
"

https://www.thebritishacademy.ac.uk/pod ... -eugenics/

People say such things about others, like Muslims especially, without any real trouble or backlash, so then in fairness it should be fine to say things of that nature about everyone or anyone, but instead we have it that people can say it about Muslims or tanned or brown or poor people, but can not say it about certain people, it becomes such a big problem suddenly, which is a double standard and makes the whole thing absurd. It is always wrong or always fine to say horrible and murderous things about whoever in broad strokes, but especially should it be fine if people are claiming with evidence a worthwhile seeming issue. I hate double standards and racist garbage, but I've been hearing people freely say that little children and babies of Muslims should be killed for 25 years now! It is bullsh*t to just freely say such things and then go and act on them and to say those who act on it are murderous monsters deserving the worst is an offense punishable by death practically, that is a total dystopia where evil psychopaths are clearly in charge and setting totally obnoxious unfairness as the "rule of law".

These same hypocrites also talk about babies and then want to murder so many babies lol. The people getting abortions are most likely the ones whose babies they would happily have destroyed.
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