Immigrants drain resources?

[atreestump]

In the same debate I was having about 'Hispanics and immigrants getting special treatment', the same Trump supporter came out with this claim.

Here is what I said: (I have removed his username)



The bottom line is that immigrants do drain resources and break the law.


So do all humans.


As for the claim that they are a small part of the work force I'd scoff at any cite claiming that, come to Texas and tell me they're a small part of the work force.


8,000,000 is not a small number, so of course, you will probably see them around. They grew by 32.7% in that state.


Also you did admit that immigrants were released correct? They should be deported not released as they're here illegally.


How much does it cost to send them back, detain them etc? The catch and release for those particular categories has taken that cost into account.


I also have to point out that statistics can be manipulated and lied about, one paper can say those cities have low crime rates while others say other wise (He had given a link to some Daily Mail and Fox Sources)


The link you gave from Fox of all sources, is misleading. Violent crimes did rise, but that doesn't mean it was illegal immigrants who did it, there's no source to support their implied assertion - I found the 10% rise to be true, but there are no demographics.

The sources I gave you show how illegal migration actually shows a decrease in crime.

The idea for the $10 million fund was announced by Mayor Eric Garcetti in December, with $3 million coming from Los Angeles County and $5 million from the private sector.

LA has a budget for this of $6 billion, if they can afford $10 million, they should go for it. Los Angeles City Councilman Curren Price Wednesday announced a plan to create a $1 million fund aimed at helping immigrants with naturalization applications and other services, including deportation defense help.

So they would be able to become legal with the help available here, I know these numbers look really high to everyday people, I find sharing these numbers doesn't do much for people to make sense of things, but in the context of how large budgets are, it's nothing, plus, $5 million of it isn't coming from LA, it's coming from the private sector, so at the moment, only $1 million has been laid down and with the private sector deduction, it's only $5 million or so coming from the city.

It doesn't mean they will get legal defence funds for commiting crimes of a violent nature and the catch and release policy does not apply to these types of migrant criminals.


Also I'd like to say it's not that they release those guys because it's a waste of resources, it's likely a political move as I stated earlier.


Based on previous analysis from the Center for American Progress, a mass deportation strategy would cost an average of $10,070 per person, for a total of $114 billion to remove 11.3 million people. So I disagree, based on these figures that it was a political move and not a cost vs. benefits judgement. It costs $1450~ to naturalise a citizen.

Also, capitalist neoliberal economies keep unemployment high to keep inflation down, if you removed that 5% of workers, you woud have massive inflation, then there's the problems with Trumps' taxation policy.


One last point I actually know people who come here just to have anchor babies, just because they're not criminals does this mean they should be allowed to be here as many of them have taken advantage of Medicare etc fir their kids?


3.8 trillion is the US budget - migrants cost around $113 billion a year. That leaves $3.6 trillion - hardly put a dent in it.

Military spending however, which is the most risky investment the US has blundered over the years and is the main reason (apart from outsourcing and China's growing economy) the USA is no longer the hegemon, is $611 billion, which still leaves 3.19 trillion. It's this spending on the military that is causing the influx of refugee migrants by the way. The two policies of anti-immigration and pro-overseas military intervention are incompatible.



$3 trillion was the amount the US paid out to the bank after the 2008 crisis.

We live in a globalised world, these people are doing what anyone would do to survive. That's a personal acceptence of this phenomenon on my part, I don't see the need for borders at all, nationalism is an outdated concept in its death throws - especially if Trump tries all out protectionism - the US will enter trade death.

The problems are at the top, jumping a border is not a crime, as you admitted -


just because they're not criminals


Compared to the damage capitalism is doing to the countries of these people who migrate, immigrants are the victims and require understanding. There's enough to go around for everyone, it's just neoliberal economics that has destroyed opportunities for everyone.


http://www.migrationpolicy.org/article/frequently-requested-statistics-immigrants-and-immigration-united-states


The numbers in this link are the same as the ones I have seen, so as regards your earlier quote:


I also have to point out that statistics can be manipulated and lied about, one paper can say those cities have low crime rates while others say other wise


This has no relevance to our discussion, apart from how Fox blew an already disclosed piece of information out of proportion, with racist implications.


Also the rate of foreign workers has increased, the reason for this is because even in America a big corporation can pay them lower wages.  Why do you think Filipino and Indian workers are brought in?

 

Yes, to keep inflation down. You are angry at the free market, not immigrants.


Because they're more competent or will happily take the lower wages.

 

Because they have no choice - capitalism is really taking off over in their countries and they have been enclosed the same way we were 200-300 years ago during the industrial revolution. Forced away from simpler, more sustainable ways of living that were locally operated, because of enclosure and land grabs.


It's the same principle behind opening a factory in Mexico rather then in the USA.  A USA worker will get paid maybe 30 dollars an hourwhile a Mexican will get paid three dollars an hour.  I assume this influx of foreign workers has also caused minimum wage to remain at an all time low.


Yes, so the problem is outsourcing and consumer capitalism, debt markets etc - not immigration. The problems are at the top - the capitalists are the real criminals, not migrants. It's all exploitation and immigrants are being scapegoated - the facts are in the figures.

[atreestump]

Resurrecting this post.

[kFoyauextlH]

I haven't read the post carefully yet, but I live in North America, in Canada, which feels in between the U.S. and U.K. and has some of the immigrant fuss involved too. Plus I grew up in the United States and dealt with various kinds of immigrant individuals and populations living in Florida, Minnesota, and Hawaii, as well as traveling throughout the U.S. and now Canada where immigrants are the majority one sees and deals with daily.

Immigrant fuss is big news right now everywhere, and in this area it is likely the actions of T, then stuff going on in the U.K. taking precedent over the comparatively minimal or possibly covered up immigrant stuff here, which seems not nearly as mouth watering for the sensationalist news, amd the news here doesn't seem as hungry for wild chaos as the Two U places, whuch combined would make a UU, a W and upside down McDonald's symbol representing "West".

So, on the one hand, these bureaucratic issues have been an irritant and I think all open lands should be free and I should be left alone because I don't like or want to be bossed around or bothered by anyone ever.

On the other hand, Japan has been allowed to strictly control the demographics and assimilation in its territory (which kay or may not be true, I have not even looked into it much to verify the reality of such assumptions), but other places seem to be a free for all full of un-assimilated populations ghettoized and in some cases gangsterized with a fully derelict seeming ideal last brought up in the 80s but referring to something more formed seeming in the 50s, right after WWII, as the Model Western Ideal, largely created by and promoted by America and through American Advertising as post-war uses for former propagandists perhaps, though it likely existed in just about the same form before that interlude and was taking pretty hard hits even by the mid and definitely the late 60s. When it was "resurrected" in the 80s by the relics from when that seemed the pinnacle, so many tumors had formed that there was no going back, the Western Ideal had become Joe Merrick.

Immigration and more specifically Immigrant Obnoxiousness had been a complaint long before and throughout the history of America and Europe, even as the ruling class in each place had apparently often been an invader and colonizing group themselves, invasive and more than likely obnoxious immigrants that had made life a lot worse for whatever group they ended up overtaking.

Now the former immigrants had more or less become assimilated after an unnecessarily long seeming indoctrination, pushed further towards that by new waves of different immigrants that then made the former immigrants seem less alien in comparison. Western and Southern Europeans, people from former commonwealth places and colonies, and then from the far flung places of the Earth relative to where they are arriving, with probably the most alien of all being the "dark" African people, and then certain obscure South East Asians, but the "mongrel" hordes of uncivilized newcomers differ per nation. Meanwhile, the neglected lower classes having lived in areas seem to go feral from neglect, looking physically unclean and rabid with unattended to mental illness, possibly even in-bred due to poverty and the inconvenience of finding far flung mates or mixing with the sometimes also reclusive, defensive, and closed off newcomers, who beyond trying to maintain certain things about their identities have also sometimes dealt with or have seen or heard of examples of others dealing with hostilities which further makes their salvic function as new companions and mates to pull out populations from becoming completely mutant muck through exaggeration of all their genetic and recessive flaws becoming dominant through what is now so popularly promoted as fantasy in p*rnography.

So, do they drain resources? I was reading about the appalling amount of water that certain cows drink in comparison to humans. I was also thinking how annoying it is that a population sweeps up the available shelters, while everything is made unreasonably unaffordable, like how wealthy people from China are who people are waiting to hit the jackpot with concerning sales of their properties at prices no normal people with average means could ever hope to afford even working a lifetime at normal or middle class jobs. The majority of homeless people here are to varying degrees the ones who seem to have had a background in Canada the longest, the Native people and the Caucasians from Western Europe who had first arrived here, while everyone in the homes seem to be immigrants, even first generation immigrants who had accumulated wealth elsewhere somehow or come from well off families and could freely move to Canada to invest here.

There has been no apparent effort in anymore trying to maintain what Canada and the people of Canada should ideally look and act like, except the universally agreed upon "Not Muslims!", and so it seems like an ultimately pretty libertarian free for all based only on how much literal wealth you can bring into the country even if everyone else already here is completely ignored and ends up being pushed towards crime and drastic means to survive.

So more than immigrants, the real scum seem to be the politicians who are controlled by the wealthy corporate leaders and who really seem to exclusively work for those people who will let the whole country fall into utter ruin with their policies that think of nothing but what helps that class of business people and theor businesses, even if it is not sensible or sustainable at all. Vile lobbyists and plants working for corporations and closely allied corporate blocs have seized control of governments and public policy making everywhere, seemingly across most of the world and especially the major Western Powers and English Speaking nations, and things have gotten worse daily with this group gaming the system and having every advantage to always plant their agents in power with little to no hope for grassroots type people or true and simple representatives when politics have become a celebrity game requiring constant funding and propaganda to prop up actors in place of boring accountants and farmer issues advocates like they are supposed to be.

So they are the true mismanagers draining and squandering the resources, which even now could be corrected without any further deporting.

Each of these countries need a full stop, and closing all changes, and working on fixing the picture as it is before constantly making more problems to deal with piled on top of an overwhelmed system with criminals having taken it over and bribery legalized and institutionalized.

Any number of non-predatory, random people who ideally have the least interest in representation of the populace and policy making for the populace could make for better true representatives than the specific types of people who pursue "playing the game" to position themselves wherever they can abuse power the most and make their toxic effect known most potently.

Nothing short of a complete, and more than likely (as has occurred numerous times already) less than peaceful complete revision would be necessary, only to be corrupted by the same sort of wicked, soulless, gigolos whoring themselves into making a system appropriate to their kind yet again.

People are gradually going to be pushed to increasing violence, with or without immigrant involvement or distraction, as they are just the first bunch that the powers that be like to direct people's frustration towards to avoid knocks at their doors after decades and centuries, if they get their way, of ignored letters and phone calls.

Anyway, that being said, I don't like or want immigrants or newcomers when I can't get my issues dealt with, and it especially annoys me when they are seemingly attended to with more services and concern than me! I don't care about much more than the fact that I was born here and want to be treated first, and not strangers newly introduced being cared for at my expense and resources and services and funds being diverted to them instead of me, even if they are brought in to help with constructing apartments and homes I can never afford or enter, belonging to people I'll never even know who are from totally different parts of the world I can't easily get involved with as they also keep to themselves and their own and sometimes barely feel comfortable speaking English, and othereise building and working at malls with things I can't afford, I mean what the hell is this but totally cutting me out and alienating me and making less space even that I can participate in, like taking up huge physical spaces with apartments I can't enter so they are just giant obstructions where I'm not supposed to be! They are caging me in, so f*ck them!

[kFoyauextlH]

So, one thing that might be nice to see, is an end to those who "know" in any way how to carry, continue, and reproduce the spread of the modernist industrialist virus, which some call "capitalism". Whoever "knows" how to "run" that "system", whoever possesses that knowledge, possibly even finally also "the good ones" who know about it but are against it. If they were all somehow cut out, so that such "knowledge" would have to start from scratch again and might take some time if the knowledge was thoroughly purged, one could at least imagine what might be left or occur among those thoroughly ignorant of any real form of such understandings. I don't believe that small business owners really are the same in their computing always as big groups at the most advanced levels of economic meddling which they have left as a convoluted mystery for the ordinary masses who have no real understanding of their alien bird language spoken in ivory towers over tickers clicking over the groaning and churning furnace wheel that for us only burns our hands and faces as we are commanded to push or die until we die.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=vvANy49Kqhw?feature=shared

https://youtu.be/XL657bUksgE?feature=shared

[Whisper]

fuck this!!!

Here is the situation in America

Immigrants do EVERYTHING in America
Immigrant farmers play a crucial role in U.S. agriculture
More than 50 percent of Farmhands are immigrants

WHO IS THE CLEANING LADY WHO CLEANS YOUR HOUSE?
WHO FARMS FRUITS, VEGGIES, TOBACCO FOR YOU?
WHO WORKS AT MEATPACKING PLANTS?
WHO MAKES YOUR FAST FOOD?
WHO WORKS FOR LESS THAN MINIMUM WAGE?

Fine, deport them all. See what happens to your economy, moron

[kFoyauextlH]

After slave labor was inconveniently made illegal, the United States economy now relies heavily upon varieties of the "next best thing", laborers who are afraid and who don't need to be given the same pay, rights, or benefits that full citizens had fought for through unionization and protests. The other thing that corporations do is outsource work to laborers who are not given good pay or treatment in other countries outside of the U.S.

They also use extremely cheap and practically free labor from a jail system that re-enslaved ethnic populations that had only just advanced slightly regarding being released from bondage and indentured servitude and slave labor and slowly won civil rights victories to be ghettoized and criminalized and with gangs and intoxicants pumped into their society and an artificial "culture" funded and promoted to encourage everything that will increase their chances of entering the legal system to become enslaved again and forced to labor in penitentiary systems.

The immigrants should NOT continue to assist this slave state and slave economy, but should run headlong from this demonic enslaving Empire that uses taxes to fund and arm ethnic cleaning operations across the world.

So if Trump is accidentally messing up this supposedly smoothly running criminal operation, I'm hoping it may lead to improvements rather than the status quo which was a lot of people getting lower pay, not able to get normal medical attention for injuries, not having the same rights or benefits as other people who basically cost these evil corporations much more to have as workers so they avoid hiring such people altogether and opt, when they can get away with it, for the people they might not even put on their files who are forced to survive on a pittance and not given costly medical coverage or insured in the same way as they would legally be required to be or could otherwise demand were they not living in terror and serving the demonic State.

So no way am I on the side of the "democrats" either in this case, who had quietly been allowing this travesty to go on to prevent the collapse of the economy by letting this new next to slave labor evilness and abuse occur.

These people were, in their desperation and hope for more money than they might have made elsewhere, ending up helping to prop up a bunch of totally vile b*stards who are destroying the whole planet, even being the direct laborers slaving away at destructive activities commanded of them by their overlords.

No. They should run, even be forced to run, and this f*cking demonic government system terrorizing the world and destroying the planet should be ruined and replaced with something that never again falls for the tricks of these "two sides" of the same coin.

If Trump is causing problems, may he be helped in every way in creating as much disruptive havoc to the demon entity as he possibly can, whatever his intentions may be, this slave system needs to be destroyed, the prison game needs to be destroyed too, the corrupt court system where some judges are linked to profiting from incarcerating people by having ties to the big prisons they send people to as forced laborers, this is pure corruption and a conflict of interest, the politicians are legally allowed to be bribed because of people like Bolton getting an evil thing passed that says Corporations are People too! So now they can give political contributions to people who are pandering to them but who are also from the get go theor employees and agents.

Biden was a demonic monster who absolutely knew how the game works and that it is a masked slavery, and why the people on both sides are saying Trump is so foolish for interfering with the game and not seeming to understand how it works by pressuring desperate people to do all the slavish tasks instead of the people who would be much more capable of fighting for better rights for themselves and in their jobs by being citizens who further organize and then wield the power of their service or withholding it for better, where there is barely any negotiating power for desperate people who have a gun held to their head that they could be reported and deported if they refuse anything or even reveal misconduct in facilities or personal injuries, and corporations prefer those people, who they can also effortlessly replace with other desperate people, the only issue being when training is involved so that they might lose knowledgeable workers (slaves) who did their work better. Boo Hoo though. The people are being misled, yet again, and made to rally foolishly for maintaining a completely evil thing that was quietly going on all this time.