I'll talk about a bunch of things here
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kFoyauextlH
- Posts: 566
- Joined: Sun Jun 15, 2025 3:53 pm
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kFoyauextlH
- Posts: 566
- Joined: Sun Jun 15, 2025 3:53 pm
Re: Sell your soul
I think that the original post in this thread was mine, I wonder if I can take control of it somehow, but it might be too difficult:
https://www.hindustantimes.com/world-ne ... 47289.html
The annoying comments all over the internet were constantly trying to make this person out to be a "foreigner" and a "Muslim" in order to spread racist hate. They've all sold their souls for sh*t, which is all they were ever worth anyway.
https://www.hindustantimes.com/world-ne ... 47289.html
The annoying comments all over the internet were constantly trying to make this person out to be a "foreigner" and a "Muslim" in order to spread racist hate. They've all sold their souls for sh*t, which is all they were ever worth anyway.
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kFoyauextlH
- Posts: 566
- Joined: Sun Jun 15, 2025 3:53 pm
Re: I'll talk about a bunch of things here
https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/ ... _muscular/
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Llyngeir
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3y ago
•
Edited 3y ago
While women in Classical statues are hardly 'fat', there is a distinct difference between the ideal men's body presented in statues, which are lean and athletic, and the supposedly ideal women's body which is presented as much more natural. This largely comes down to the elite ideal of women's lifestyles in Classical Athens. While men were free to go to the gymnasium, and were encouraged to do so, and boys were generally also expected to do so, women were largely confined to certain areas of life.
Xenophon provides us with what may have been the Classical Athenian elite ideal concerning women in his Economics. In his work, Xenophon says that women were responsible for controlling the household. Indeed, it appears that a girl's education, whether provided to her by her parents or by her new husband, was orientated towards this responsibility (Ec. 7.3ff; cf. Hesiod WD 699). According to Xenophon, "to be woman it is more honourable to stay indoors than to abide in the fields, but to the man it is unseemly rather to stay indoors than to attend to the work outside" (Ec. 7.30). We should be wary, however, simply accepting Xenophon's testimony as the general view of Classical Athenians as, much like Plato, his works weren't performed in a public sphere or for public attention, but for a small section of society.
Yet, we see a similar belief in other Classical Athenian sources. For example, Lycurgus tells us that, when word of a defeat reached Athens, women were crouched in their doorways asking passersby for news of their husbands, brothers, and sons, and Lycurgus makes it clear that such behaviour was considered shameful (Against Leocrates 40). Lysias similarly tells us that it was an admirable thing for young women to not even be seen by their kinsmen (3.6-7). Additionally, Euripides tells us that it was considered "shameful for a woman to be standing with young men" (Electra 343-4). These examples are from speeches and a play, which were performed before a wide selection of Athenians from different social strata, and as such, we can infer that this ideal was widely held. Thus, elite women likely led largely sedentary lifestyles.
However, these examples likely relate to elite Athenian women, not all women in Athens. As Cohen says, "relatively few families which could dispense with the essential economic activities of the woman - activities which necessarily involve going out of the house" (1989: 9). There are plenty of hints throughout the sources that poorer women regularly went outside, for example, to fetch water (Aristophanes Lysistrata 327-31; cf. this vase painting) or even to go to work (Aristotle Politics 1323a), such as selling goods in the market (Aristophanes Wasps 495-500). These working women were likely not of the physical appearance that you describe, but they were also not the women statues were made of.
As for elite women, as Blundell says, "There is no evidence to suggest that Athenian girls were given any kind of systematic athletics training in the gymnasium" (1995: 133). That said, there is evidence from vase paintings that show girls and young women involved in some forms of exercise. This vase shows a young woman running, possibly being chased, while holding her skirts in one hand in a manner that is reminiscent of a bronze figurine we'll turn to in a moment. This vase shows girls dancing under instruction, although we can say nothing about their status from the vase, they could conceivably be slave girls being trained. Finally, this vase, from the temple of Artemis in Brauron, shows girls or young women dancing or running (see Blundell, 1995: 133-5).
In Sparta, on the other hand, there is evidence for more formal physical education for girls and women. Xenophon, in his Lacedaemonain Politeia, approves of the 'Lycurgan' measures that meant both boys and girls had some form of physical training, including "races and trials of strength" (1.4). Euripides paints Spartan women in a similar light, saying that they go abroad with men and exercise in the same places as men (Andromache 595-601). Alcman, who was active in the late seventh to sixth century BC, references girls dancing (fr. 1 West). In Aristophanes' Lysistrata, Lampito, the Spartan woman, is said to look like she could strangle a bull (line 81). Both Plato (Laws 806a) and Aristotle (Politics 1269b) complain that Spartan women's physical education made them no better at war than women of other Greek poleis, suggesting that their exercise was unusual for Greek women. This figurine, mentioned above, is thought to be Laconian, possibly attesting to the exercise of Spartan women in the Archaic period. Sadly, however, we do not have much more physical evidence of women exercising in Sparta.
Thus, the appearance of women in Classical sculpture with less athletic figures than their male counterparts is simply due to the culture of female separation in Classical Athens, which meant that women likely did not have the opportunity to exercise, while elite men made a habit of going to the gymnasium.
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"
Llyngeir
•
3y ago
•
Edited 3y ago
While women in Classical statues are hardly 'fat', there is a distinct difference between the ideal men's body presented in statues, which are lean and athletic, and the supposedly ideal women's body which is presented as much more natural. This largely comes down to the elite ideal of women's lifestyles in Classical Athens. While men were free to go to the gymnasium, and were encouraged to do so, and boys were generally also expected to do so, women were largely confined to certain areas of life.
Xenophon provides us with what may have been the Classical Athenian elite ideal concerning women in his Economics. In his work, Xenophon says that women were responsible for controlling the household. Indeed, it appears that a girl's education, whether provided to her by her parents or by her new husband, was orientated towards this responsibility (Ec. 7.3ff; cf. Hesiod WD 699). According to Xenophon, "to be woman it is more honourable to stay indoors than to abide in the fields, but to the man it is unseemly rather to stay indoors than to attend to the work outside" (Ec. 7.30). We should be wary, however, simply accepting Xenophon's testimony as the general view of Classical Athenians as, much like Plato, his works weren't performed in a public sphere or for public attention, but for a small section of society.
Yet, we see a similar belief in other Classical Athenian sources. For example, Lycurgus tells us that, when word of a defeat reached Athens, women were crouched in their doorways asking passersby for news of their husbands, brothers, and sons, and Lycurgus makes it clear that such behaviour was considered shameful (Against Leocrates 40). Lysias similarly tells us that it was an admirable thing for young women to not even be seen by their kinsmen (3.6-7). Additionally, Euripides tells us that it was considered "shameful for a woman to be standing with young men" (Electra 343-4). These examples are from speeches and a play, which were performed before a wide selection of Athenians from different social strata, and as such, we can infer that this ideal was widely held. Thus, elite women likely led largely sedentary lifestyles.
However, these examples likely relate to elite Athenian women, not all women in Athens. As Cohen says, "relatively few families which could dispense with the essential economic activities of the woman - activities which necessarily involve going out of the house" (1989: 9). There are plenty of hints throughout the sources that poorer women regularly went outside, for example, to fetch water (Aristophanes Lysistrata 327-31; cf. this vase painting) or even to go to work (Aristotle Politics 1323a), such as selling goods in the market (Aristophanes Wasps 495-500). These working women were likely not of the physical appearance that you describe, but they were also not the women statues were made of.
As for elite women, as Blundell says, "There is no evidence to suggest that Athenian girls were given any kind of systematic athletics training in the gymnasium" (1995: 133). That said, there is evidence from vase paintings that show girls and young women involved in some forms of exercise. This vase shows a young woman running, possibly being chased, while holding her skirts in one hand in a manner that is reminiscent of a bronze figurine we'll turn to in a moment. This vase shows girls dancing under instruction, although we can say nothing about their status from the vase, they could conceivably be slave girls being trained. Finally, this vase, from the temple of Artemis in Brauron, shows girls or young women dancing or running (see Blundell, 1995: 133-5).
In Sparta, on the other hand, there is evidence for more formal physical education for girls and women. Xenophon, in his Lacedaemonain Politeia, approves of the 'Lycurgan' measures that meant both boys and girls had some form of physical training, including "races and trials of strength" (1.4). Euripides paints Spartan women in a similar light, saying that they go abroad with men and exercise in the same places as men (Andromache 595-601). Alcman, who was active in the late seventh to sixth century BC, references girls dancing (fr. 1 West). In Aristophanes' Lysistrata, Lampito, the Spartan woman, is said to look like she could strangle a bull (line 81). Both Plato (Laws 806a) and Aristotle (Politics 1269b) complain that Spartan women's physical education made them no better at war than women of other Greek poleis, suggesting that their exercise was unusual for Greek women. This figurine, mentioned above, is thought to be Laconian, possibly attesting to the exercise of Spartan women in the Archaic period. Sadly, however, we do not have much more physical evidence of women exercising in Sparta.
Thus, the appearance of women in Classical sculpture with less athletic figures than their male counterparts is simply due to the culture of female separation in Classical Athens, which meant that women likely did not have the opportunity to exercise, while elite men made a habit of going to the gymnasium.
"