The phenomena of hypnosis
Hypnosis is a peculiar phenomenon that allows a practitioner to have some kind of dialogue with the unconscious realm of the human mind. What is curious however, is how the unconscious that is accessed though hypnosis, is responsive to language.
If a hypnotist induces the victim to eat a lemon by describing it as a juicy, sweet apple, the victim does not presumably hallucinate the visual image, as they will hold the lemon according to its proper shape. The victim will however, interpret the lemon as an apple and in spite of their taste buds, actually enjoy the apple! This means that interpretation is no longer based on sense perception, it has been short-circuited and the word 'apple' now dominates the senses. We form our sense through language.
Signifiers without signified
The implications of this phenomenon are quite profound. A hypnotist can bring about long or short term modifcations to the structure of the Unconscious, sometimes a therapist may provide post-hypnotic suggestions that provoke nausea when the patient encounters a cigarette, the words 'take over' the senses whenever temptation for cigarettes come about. Similar effects are seen in neurotic patients, a myth speaks to the subject. The myth is essentially the 'discourse of the other'. The Unconscious works like a language of signifiers without signifieds, marks on a page without meanings behind them.
This means that language is a part of the Unconscious, the subject (I) is created from otherness. The Unconscious can be seen like a grid of signs that are nothing more than marks on the grid without meaning, no signified relation to the outside of the subject. I is a creation of language, which is the other.
In the hypnotic state, verbalisation is disassociated from realisation.
The stage hypnotist may inflict upon their victim the curse of barking like a dog whenever someone claps, or says a keyword (trigger phrase) through post-hypnotic suggestion and much like a neurotic patient when behaving in an odd way, will rationalise and justify their actions as normal and under their own control.
The Unconscious is structured like a language
This famous and profound phrase is from the psycho-analyst Jacques Lacan, through the phenomenon of hypnosis he discovered that the Unconscious was not primordial and primitive, full of animal instincts that were completely irrational and without structure. It is composed of drives and what it knows about the elementary is no more than the elements of the signifier.
We become ourselves through the other, in a previous thread on the concept of Incorporation (the embodiment of the world around us) I discussed how we are nothing more than what we ingest around us,from those closest to us. The Unconscious as a language shows how we desire what others desire, it's just how we are wired.
Need can be satisfied, but desire is never satisfied. In understanding how language and symbols can shape our inner world, we can simply find 'others' to inform ourselves that can best suit our needs. Understanding this structure of language as something instrinsic to the way our psyche operates should not be taken as a kind of inauthenticity, but rather a determinism that we can be aware of and then expose our Unconscious to different desires.
Unconscious is Structured like a Language
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atreestump
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kFoyauextlH
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Re: Unconscious is Structured like a Language
Are you interested in discussing anything further regarding what is brought up in this thread and recent posts and writing or anything you may be thinking about and wanting to discuss these days? If not, this can still function as a bump for this thread.
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atreestump
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Unconscious is Structured like a Language
[quote]kFoyauextlH wrote:
Are you interested in discussing anything further regarding what is brought up in this thread and recent posts and writing or anything you may be thinking about and wanting to discuss these days? If not, this can still function as a bump for this thread.[/quote]
Do you have a specific question about it?
Are you interested in discussing anything further regarding what is brought up in this thread and recent posts and writing or anything you may be thinking about and wanting to discuss these days? If not, this can still function as a bump for this thread.[/quote]
Do you have a specific question about it?
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kFoyauextlH
- Posts: 1668
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Re: Unconscious is Structured like a Language
Sure, and thank you for being available and asking:
"
The myth is essentially the 'discourse of the other'.
"
What does that mean, and how so, what myth and ehat other and what is the other? You don't have to answer if you don't feel like it, I can look up these terms and try to make sense of them, but I thought you may have had a shortcut yo what you meant or were referring to particularly in your idea presented here and the context, plus you could provide an example which you think fits well. What are the sources or indpiration for these ideas and how convinced are you of them? I guess I even eonder what the unconscious is thought to be and how people become convinced of it and confident in any of these claims that people might make about it.
https://www.ryanjoyce.com/post/hypnosis-myths
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stage_hypnosis
"
The causes of behavior exhibited by volunteers in stage hypnosis shows is an area of dispute. Some claim it illustrates altered states of consciousness (i.e., "hypnotic trance"). Others maintain that it can be explained by a combination of psychological factors observed in group settings such as disorientation, compliance, peer pressure, and ordinary suggestion. Some others allege that deception plays a part.
"
https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Mind_trick
"
The Unconscious works like a language of signifiers without signifieds, marks on a page without meanings behind them.
"
That is explained clearly enough but how can we be confident that this is the case, is there something more that can be provided that first establishes the presence pf the unconscious mind and then that it has that going on? Maybe some convincing examples?
You could link to the other thread, if you remember which it was, that deals more on that particular aspect and those terms, which I wouldn't mind seeing more about again.
https://www.la-articles.org.uk/themytho ... scious.pdf
"
This means that language is a part of the Unconscious, the subject (I) is created from otherness.
"
So, but I hate to guess and make assumptions about what is being said here, maybe I don't have a good grip on the terms in this context, maybe not in any context, but how so? So "I" look around me, starting from infancy or birth, maybe even before somehow, and I dissociate from these things I'm experirncing which I don't seem yo consciously control or have anything to do with, they seem cut off, dead, separate, so then I am whatever I can move around and feel and which isn't that stuff that I can't, then what happens? Is a mirror involved? Ok, a person never sees themselves, they are born totally without ever having seen, do they mainly deal with physical and auditory input, and language, which they are able to learn, somehow, maybe not knowing what the heck anything means by our standards, having a different way of making associations or learning about things without the visual elements we might include. There are even supposedly the deaf and blind who can learn, but they must be able to receive input somehow and then make connections regarding that input. How would one go about influencing their subconscious, I wonder? I wonder if thinking about such a hypothetical person would help clarify what we are referring to or imagining as the unconscious, if they have it, if and how it is accessible, how one may suppose it would be manipulated effectively? Would that clarify also the process by reduction of complexity by less pathways involved?
"
The Unconscious can be seen like a grid of signs that are nothing more than marks on the grid without meaning, no signified relation to the outside of the subject. I is a creation of language, which is the other.
"
So in our minds or memory somewhere, we have all kinds of information, complex as it is already, but separate from further connections for some reason, and certain connections can be rewired somehow. Why are certain things easier to disconnect than others? Was it the way in which we received the information and the order in which it was transcribed in our memory that makes it have separate chunks? For example we first see a red object of a certain shape, we hear some sound Appuhl Appuhl but we mainly don't knoe what they are going on about with this new sound combination they are making, then it is placed in our hand or against our little mouth, we smell it briefly, we open our mouth, and slobber around it because we have no teeth. What has entered our unconscious and at what point can it be manipulated? It doesn't seem like this ignorant newbie can be as easily manipulated as a know-it-all with lots of things to switch around in their repetoire of personal illusions.
"
In the hypnotic state, verbalisation is disassociated from realisation.
"
Could you explain this further, did some book say that? What does it mean, the perdon doesn't realize what is being spoken about? Apple, once known, in the hypnotic state, becomes unknown? Does it bring anything up? How do we know with any degree of confidence what it does or doesn't bring up?
"
The Unconscious is structured like a language
"
Can you link to or write what a language is structured like, so then we might know what is being claimed about the structure of the unconscious which is supposed to be of the same or similar design according to Lacan?
"
It is composed of drives and what it knows about the elementary is no more than the elements of the signifier.
"
What are drives in this context? Sensations? How complex are these and how specific? Pain in general or hunger pangs?
A signifier is a combination of infirmation, for a visual person markings, in audio a sound separate from other sounds that particularly stands out?
"
We become ourselves through the other, in a previous thread on the concept of Incorporation (the embodiment of the world around us) I discussed how we are nothing more than what we ingest around us, from those closest to us. The Unconscious as a language shows how we desire what others desire, it's just how we are wired.
"
Why do people around us not seem to really desire the same things at the same time? How is it we are all being made to feel increasingly different and unable to relate to anyone? W
How are they pulling that mass hypnosis on us? What has the stronger influence and why do you think that may be?
Do you remember what thread that was, it is probably containing that word you mentioned.
Anyway, I don't think you are saying this, but it reminds me of how I say we are our experience, like a frame of a film at any moment, just what is being experienced is all we are and know and know exclusively as no other human is aware of such or seeing it, nor is anything seeing or experiencing exactly as we do, with our particular lack of more than just our experience, but I don't think you are talking about that or imagining it like that ptobably, as that goes towards considering our own body inaccessible and unknowable really, since all we know is whatever we are experiencing, which prople might call input or imagine as being there and coming in to our senses.
https://www.wisdomlib.org/definition/in ... f5tffzn1b8
https://www.wisdomlib.org/definition/indriy
https://www.wisdomlib.org/concept/indriya
https://www.wisdomlib.org/concept/senses-indriya
https://www.wisdomlib.org/buddhism/essa ... 87778.html
Some of these people liked me, some of these people didn't. I tend to be a divisive character, and it often seems the more open minded people who allow for different connections and drawing from a wider variety of references tend to like me more than the cranky people who, like Freud, create secret conspiracies to plot pushing a person out or getting thrm banned and exiled, like he did regarding Carl Jung:
https://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.p ... vg72wrkhgg
What do we make of the unconscious if a completely evil, annoying bastard refers to it?
https://www.ff.unsa.ba/files/zavDipl/19 ... Kahric.pdf
"
The "conspiracy" or organized effort by Sigmund Freud against Carl Jung was not a hidden plot, but rather
a calculated, strategic, and often personal campaign to protect the integrity of psychoanalysis from what Freud viewed as heresy and betrayal. The conflict arose from deep theoretical disagreements, particularly regarding sexuality, religion, and the nature of the unconscious, leading to a bitter, public, and private breakup of their partnership.
The "Secret Committee" and Its Purpose
Formation (1912-1913): To protect his, and the core of, psychoanalysis from dissenters—most notably Carl Jung and Alfred Adler—Freud, at the suggestion of Ernest Jones, established a "Secret Committee".
The Ring: In May 1913, Freud presented members with a Greek intaglio ring as a symbol of their commitment to his core theories (specifically, that sexuality was the center of psychoanalysis).
Membership: The original members were Ernest Jones (chairman), Sándor Ferenczi, Otto Rank, Hanns Sachs, and Karl Abraham, later joined by Max Eitingon and Anna Freud.
The Goal: The committee was intended to function as a "secret council" to safeguard the future development of psychoanalysis and to defend it against personal, subjective deviations.
The Nature of the Split
Betrayal of "Obeisance": Freud initially viewed Jung as his "crown prince" and designated successor, expecting, as some accounts suggest, a level of loyalty and adherence to his theories.
Theoretical Disagreements: Jung felt Freud's focus on sex was too narrow and that his concept of the unconscious was limited to repressed personal memories. Jung introduced the idea of a "collective unconscious" and a more symbolic approach to dreams.
Accusations: The split was personal as well as professional, with Freud accusing Jung of departing from the "truth" of psychoanalysis and Jung charging Freud with being domineering and incapable of accepting challenges.
The Aftermath and Retaliation
The Breakup: Freud explicitly ended his relationship with Jung in 1913.
Mutual Attacks: Following the split, the "campaign" involved intense personal attacks. Followers of Freud, with his support, characterized Jung as having experienced a psychological break (or "ambulatory schizophrenia"), while Jung accused Freud of dogma and, in his later, controversial writings, suggested a distinction between Jewish and "Aryan" psychology.
The "Secret" Circle: The Committee, largely composed of loyalists, ensured that orthodox psychoanalysis (rooted in Freud's theories) remained the standard, effectively isolating Jung and his "analytical psychology" from the core movement.
While some interpretations of this period suggest a more intense, personal, or even "conspiratorial" effort, the historical record points to a structured, professional defense of a new science (psychoanalysis) that, in the context of intense personal and intellectual conflict, turned into a bitter ideological war.
"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secret_co ... oanalysis)
Similar freaks are regularly doing this on all levels, from petty seeming small-time forums to major organizations with global reach running smear campaigns in order to stifle individual thinking. Even the much praised Noam Chomsky seemed to have been running such a scheme against a good seeming person who simply was trying to present evidence which might call into question some of Noam Chomsky's well publicized propaganda and likely stupid bullsh*t everyone was hypnotized by. Now prople might finally be willing to see differently regarding Noam Chomsky due to his "drives" leading to a longtime association with Jeffrey Epstein and his cabal of all the fragile and easily threatened intellectuals, one other of which is Richard Dawkins, and there are others of these nerds that people have put up on a pedestal until they find out that they are perverts associating with a pervert, then suddenly the peolle are willing to hear and believe that the things these people presented with such confidence and supposefly near universal acceptance, approval, and praise, might just have been silly rubbish all along.
"
Need can be satisfied, but desire is never satisfied.
"
I'm guessing a need is a temporary thing that might return, like hunger, so temporarily satisfied, but what is a desire then? Is it that a desire has no way to be resplved, so that the definition of the word as it is used in this context may be "Something wanted which can not be attained"? It is just that, in other ways that the word might be used, the desired thing can be attained and then it might be over? So what is this version that can't be stopped or satisfied?
"
In understanding how language and symbols can shape our inner world, we can simply find 'others' to inform ourselves that can best suit our needs.
"
Groups of people who say whatcwe want to hear? Is that what you mean? How do we know what we want or what our needs may be or what would bedt suit them? Eould we be going around exploring and then something feels better than other things?
"
then expose our Unconscious to different desires.
"
Why, and what would be an example of that? How do you think it works?
https://www.bbc.com/future/article/2016 ... n-this-way
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conversion_therapy
The gay is too strong?
A person can supposedly experience the sharp acid from a lemon as sweet apple and be convinced they are a dog or something but certain desires are for some reason off limits and people say it is so bad, plus they fail so often supposedly that they also just must totally suck at this work as compared to stage hypnotists that I guess Lacan was watching and using as evidence?
My whole family is into psychology and hypnotherapy, and they now also work with people who are addicts and things like that who deal with all sorts of hypnosis stuff and unconscious drives, plus I and my spouse have a background in psychology and I furthermore in hypnotherapy and the history of it, also, and this might be most important, I played a Mesmer in Guild Wars:
https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Mesmer
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mesmer
https://harrypotter.fandom.com/wiki/Cat ... tal_spells
https://harrypotter.fandom.com/wiki/Imperius_Curse
Spoilers:
https://villains.fandom.com/wiki/Stephen_Norton
"
demonstrated his abilities of psychological abuse upon people like Colonel Luttrell, Hastings and Mrs. Franklin, applying just such psychological pressure as was needed to provoke someone to commit murder. His victims were unwary what was happening when they were placed under his control.
"
If such a thing existed or could be done, why are we dealing with life-threatening tech billionaires? Are they androids somehow immune to the influence of the Force? Does the A.I. cognition they are trying to create have an unconscious mind similar to the one that we supposedly have which people can so expertly shape and influence?
https://bladerunner.fandom.com/wiki/Do_ ... c_Sheep%3F
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a ... 3220303800
Sorry for all the probably irritating questions, feel free to skip it if it is too bothersome or time consuming or feels like a waste to write anything more or in response, but I really appreciate any effort you may be able to put in. I put in effort too, even ehen I'm collecting things to post, I read all that stuff or view it usually to make sure it is what I want to put up and works for my ourposes, and it can be really exhausting going through so much information, and I really do think about sverything earnestly and I'm sincere and without any specific agenda like trying to do something specific, I just like thinking about things and understanding ideas and also questioning things, even choosing things. These taste based things are supposedly from the unconscious, also allegedly influenced by people who haven't apparently influenced me because I seem to have thought of all I have and discovered and prefered what J have separately and differently from them, and can scarcely really ever find like minded people or anyone to understand me or where I feel understood. Though I have all these people who are said to have made me think a d feel like they do or something, I feel like a pariah, and likewise feel resentment about my being so cut off, unable to communicate well and only ever hearing about how if I even ever reveal my thoughts, suddenly I'm further exposed as indeed an oddball, so in real life I remain very limited in ever sharing anything, even online for the most part because the responses have been consistently undesirable. I suppose my needs are being met by blurring things out here and there, mostly to myself, but I doubt anyone would find solipsistic existential isolation to be ideal or what I would have wanted.
Maybe one of these hypnotist people can somehow get me to feel differently. I feel like people are nice and like me, but that I'm not able to communicate with them and I don't really end up desiring those interactions so I don't feel like I like people too much ever, which is sad too, yet I care about people, wish them well, and try to help them and advise them when I can and for their benefit, even though I condider them far from being very palatable, enjoyable, likeable, I never feel like I have fun derived from anyone, it is always me being fun and having fun and making things fun for others, I see them laughing and enjoying themsrlves in response to my humor and silliness and animation, but that is all I get from them, I feel like I maybe never get any enjoyment from them or much stimulation, I have to do it all myself. Maybe there is a psychological term for all that.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Locked-in_syndrome
https://www.goodtherapy.org/blog/Indica ... -Anhedonia
Anyway, I'm pretty cheerful, I think, regardless of any of the weirdness.
I also feel like people these days especially are weird in certain ways, like they are very busy and not very curious, like they've made up their minds somehow or closed off, and I have made up my mind but I don't feel like I'm as lacking in interest and curiousity, like the impression I get from others I notice in the world, I scarcely get the impression anyone is as curious as I am or as thoughtful about anything, they just seem to want to quickly be done with thinking about things, maybe it is pragmatism and also that they don't enjoy thinking or think in the same way, which for me is a creative process. Who knows if this unconscious thing exists, is structured like a language, and everyone has it, and everyone who has one has it structured like a language? Like, what if mine doesn't exist or operate like this or like it does for others? What if that is why no one seems to understand me?
That is why this topic is important to me too.
"
The myth is essentially the 'discourse of the other'.
"
What does that mean, and how so, what myth and ehat other and what is the other? You don't have to answer if you don't feel like it, I can look up these terms and try to make sense of them, but I thought you may have had a shortcut yo what you meant or were referring to particularly in your idea presented here and the context, plus you could provide an example which you think fits well. What are the sources or indpiration for these ideas and how convinced are you of them? I guess I even eonder what the unconscious is thought to be and how people become convinced of it and confident in any of these claims that people might make about it.
https://www.ryanjoyce.com/post/hypnosis-myths
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stage_hypnosis
"
The causes of behavior exhibited by volunteers in stage hypnosis shows is an area of dispute. Some claim it illustrates altered states of consciousness (i.e., "hypnotic trance"). Others maintain that it can be explained by a combination of psychological factors observed in group settings such as disorientation, compliance, peer pressure, and ordinary suggestion. Some others allege that deception plays a part.
"
https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Mind_trick
"
The Unconscious works like a language of signifiers without signifieds, marks on a page without meanings behind them.
"
That is explained clearly enough but how can we be confident that this is the case, is there something more that can be provided that first establishes the presence pf the unconscious mind and then that it has that going on? Maybe some convincing examples?
You could link to the other thread, if you remember which it was, that deals more on that particular aspect and those terms, which I wouldn't mind seeing more about again.
https://www.la-articles.org.uk/themytho ... scious.pdf
"
This means that language is a part of the Unconscious, the subject (I) is created from otherness.
"
So, but I hate to guess and make assumptions about what is being said here, maybe I don't have a good grip on the terms in this context, maybe not in any context, but how so? So "I" look around me, starting from infancy or birth, maybe even before somehow, and I dissociate from these things I'm experirncing which I don't seem yo consciously control or have anything to do with, they seem cut off, dead, separate, so then I am whatever I can move around and feel and which isn't that stuff that I can't, then what happens? Is a mirror involved? Ok, a person never sees themselves, they are born totally without ever having seen, do they mainly deal with physical and auditory input, and language, which they are able to learn, somehow, maybe not knowing what the heck anything means by our standards, having a different way of making associations or learning about things without the visual elements we might include. There are even supposedly the deaf and blind who can learn, but they must be able to receive input somehow and then make connections regarding that input. How would one go about influencing their subconscious, I wonder? I wonder if thinking about such a hypothetical person would help clarify what we are referring to or imagining as the unconscious, if they have it, if and how it is accessible, how one may suppose it would be manipulated effectively? Would that clarify also the process by reduction of complexity by less pathways involved?
"
The Unconscious can be seen like a grid of signs that are nothing more than marks on the grid without meaning, no signified relation to the outside of the subject. I is a creation of language, which is the other.
"
So in our minds or memory somewhere, we have all kinds of information, complex as it is already, but separate from further connections for some reason, and certain connections can be rewired somehow. Why are certain things easier to disconnect than others? Was it the way in which we received the information and the order in which it was transcribed in our memory that makes it have separate chunks? For example we first see a red object of a certain shape, we hear some sound Appuhl Appuhl but we mainly don't knoe what they are going on about with this new sound combination they are making, then it is placed in our hand or against our little mouth, we smell it briefly, we open our mouth, and slobber around it because we have no teeth. What has entered our unconscious and at what point can it be manipulated? It doesn't seem like this ignorant newbie can be as easily manipulated as a know-it-all with lots of things to switch around in their repetoire of personal illusions.
"
In the hypnotic state, verbalisation is disassociated from realisation.
"
Could you explain this further, did some book say that? What does it mean, the perdon doesn't realize what is being spoken about? Apple, once known, in the hypnotic state, becomes unknown? Does it bring anything up? How do we know with any degree of confidence what it does or doesn't bring up?
"
The Unconscious is structured like a language
"
Can you link to or write what a language is structured like, so then we might know what is being claimed about the structure of the unconscious which is supposed to be of the same or similar design according to Lacan?
"
It is composed of drives and what it knows about the elementary is no more than the elements of the signifier.
"
What are drives in this context? Sensations? How complex are these and how specific? Pain in general or hunger pangs?
A signifier is a combination of infirmation, for a visual person markings, in audio a sound separate from other sounds that particularly stands out?
"
We become ourselves through the other, in a previous thread on the concept of Incorporation (the embodiment of the world around us) I discussed how we are nothing more than what we ingest around us, from those closest to us. The Unconscious as a language shows how we desire what others desire, it's just how we are wired.
"
Why do people around us not seem to really desire the same things at the same time? How is it we are all being made to feel increasingly different and unable to relate to anyone? W
How are they pulling that mass hypnosis on us? What has the stronger influence and why do you think that may be?
Do you remember what thread that was, it is probably containing that word you mentioned.
Anyway, I don't think you are saying this, but it reminds me of how I say we are our experience, like a frame of a film at any moment, just what is being experienced is all we are and know and know exclusively as no other human is aware of such or seeing it, nor is anything seeing or experiencing exactly as we do, with our particular lack of more than just our experience, but I don't think you are talking about that or imagining it like that ptobably, as that goes towards considering our own body inaccessible and unknowable really, since all we know is whatever we are experiencing, which prople might call input or imagine as being there and coming in to our senses.
https://www.wisdomlib.org/definition/in ... f5tffzn1b8
https://www.wisdomlib.org/definition/indriy
https://www.wisdomlib.org/concept/indriya
https://www.wisdomlib.org/concept/senses-indriya
https://www.wisdomlib.org/buddhism/essa ... 87778.html
Some of these people liked me, some of these people didn't. I tend to be a divisive character, and it often seems the more open minded people who allow for different connections and drawing from a wider variety of references tend to like me more than the cranky people who, like Freud, create secret conspiracies to plot pushing a person out or getting thrm banned and exiled, like he did regarding Carl Jung:
https://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.p ... vg72wrkhgg
What do we make of the unconscious if a completely evil, annoying bastard refers to it?
https://www.ff.unsa.ba/files/zavDipl/19 ... Kahric.pdf
"
The "conspiracy" or organized effort by Sigmund Freud against Carl Jung was not a hidden plot, but rather
a calculated, strategic, and often personal campaign to protect the integrity of psychoanalysis from what Freud viewed as heresy and betrayal. The conflict arose from deep theoretical disagreements, particularly regarding sexuality, religion, and the nature of the unconscious, leading to a bitter, public, and private breakup of their partnership.
The "Secret Committee" and Its Purpose
Formation (1912-1913): To protect his, and the core of, psychoanalysis from dissenters—most notably Carl Jung and Alfred Adler—Freud, at the suggestion of Ernest Jones, established a "Secret Committee".
The Ring: In May 1913, Freud presented members with a Greek intaglio ring as a symbol of their commitment to his core theories (specifically, that sexuality was the center of psychoanalysis).
Membership: The original members were Ernest Jones (chairman), Sándor Ferenczi, Otto Rank, Hanns Sachs, and Karl Abraham, later joined by Max Eitingon and Anna Freud.
The Goal: The committee was intended to function as a "secret council" to safeguard the future development of psychoanalysis and to defend it against personal, subjective deviations.
The Nature of the Split
Betrayal of "Obeisance": Freud initially viewed Jung as his "crown prince" and designated successor, expecting, as some accounts suggest, a level of loyalty and adherence to his theories.
Theoretical Disagreements: Jung felt Freud's focus on sex was too narrow and that his concept of the unconscious was limited to repressed personal memories. Jung introduced the idea of a "collective unconscious" and a more symbolic approach to dreams.
Accusations: The split was personal as well as professional, with Freud accusing Jung of departing from the "truth" of psychoanalysis and Jung charging Freud with being domineering and incapable of accepting challenges.
The Aftermath and Retaliation
The Breakup: Freud explicitly ended his relationship with Jung in 1913.
Mutual Attacks: Following the split, the "campaign" involved intense personal attacks. Followers of Freud, with his support, characterized Jung as having experienced a psychological break (or "ambulatory schizophrenia"), while Jung accused Freud of dogma and, in his later, controversial writings, suggested a distinction between Jewish and "Aryan" psychology.
The "Secret" Circle: The Committee, largely composed of loyalists, ensured that orthodox psychoanalysis (rooted in Freud's theories) remained the standard, effectively isolating Jung and his "analytical psychology" from the core movement.
While some interpretations of this period suggest a more intense, personal, or even "conspiratorial" effort, the historical record points to a structured, professional defense of a new science (psychoanalysis) that, in the context of intense personal and intellectual conflict, turned into a bitter ideological war.
"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secret_co ... oanalysis)
Similar freaks are regularly doing this on all levels, from petty seeming small-time forums to major organizations with global reach running smear campaigns in order to stifle individual thinking. Even the much praised Noam Chomsky seemed to have been running such a scheme against a good seeming person who simply was trying to present evidence which might call into question some of Noam Chomsky's well publicized propaganda and likely stupid bullsh*t everyone was hypnotized by. Now prople might finally be willing to see differently regarding Noam Chomsky due to his "drives" leading to a longtime association with Jeffrey Epstein and his cabal of all the fragile and easily threatened intellectuals, one other of which is Richard Dawkins, and there are others of these nerds that people have put up on a pedestal until they find out that they are perverts associating with a pervert, then suddenly the peolle are willing to hear and believe that the things these people presented with such confidence and supposefly near universal acceptance, approval, and praise, might just have been silly rubbish all along.
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Need can be satisfied, but desire is never satisfied.
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I'm guessing a need is a temporary thing that might return, like hunger, so temporarily satisfied, but what is a desire then? Is it that a desire has no way to be resplved, so that the definition of the word as it is used in this context may be "Something wanted which can not be attained"? It is just that, in other ways that the word might be used, the desired thing can be attained and then it might be over? So what is this version that can't be stopped or satisfied?
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In understanding how language and symbols can shape our inner world, we can simply find 'others' to inform ourselves that can best suit our needs.
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Groups of people who say whatcwe want to hear? Is that what you mean? How do we know what we want or what our needs may be or what would bedt suit them? Eould we be going around exploring and then something feels better than other things?
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then expose our Unconscious to different desires.
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Why, and what would be an example of that? How do you think it works?
https://www.bbc.com/future/article/2016 ... n-this-way
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conversion_therapy
The gay is too strong?
A person can supposedly experience the sharp acid from a lemon as sweet apple and be convinced they are a dog or something but certain desires are for some reason off limits and people say it is so bad, plus they fail so often supposedly that they also just must totally suck at this work as compared to stage hypnotists that I guess Lacan was watching and using as evidence?
My whole family is into psychology and hypnotherapy, and they now also work with people who are addicts and things like that who deal with all sorts of hypnosis stuff and unconscious drives, plus I and my spouse have a background in psychology and I furthermore in hypnotherapy and the history of it, also, and this might be most important, I played a Mesmer in Guild Wars:
https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Mesmer
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mesmer
https://harrypotter.fandom.com/wiki/Cat ... tal_spells
https://harrypotter.fandom.com/wiki/Imperius_Curse
Spoilers:
https://villains.fandom.com/wiki/Stephen_Norton
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demonstrated his abilities of psychological abuse upon people like Colonel Luttrell, Hastings and Mrs. Franklin, applying just such psychological pressure as was needed to provoke someone to commit murder. His victims were unwary what was happening when they were placed under his control.
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If such a thing existed or could be done, why are we dealing with life-threatening tech billionaires? Are they androids somehow immune to the influence of the Force? Does the A.I. cognition they are trying to create have an unconscious mind similar to the one that we supposedly have which people can so expertly shape and influence?
https://bladerunner.fandom.com/wiki/Do_ ... c_Sheep%3F
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a ... 3220303800
Sorry for all the probably irritating questions, feel free to skip it if it is too bothersome or time consuming or feels like a waste to write anything more or in response, but I really appreciate any effort you may be able to put in. I put in effort too, even ehen I'm collecting things to post, I read all that stuff or view it usually to make sure it is what I want to put up and works for my ourposes, and it can be really exhausting going through so much information, and I really do think about sverything earnestly and I'm sincere and without any specific agenda like trying to do something specific, I just like thinking about things and understanding ideas and also questioning things, even choosing things. These taste based things are supposedly from the unconscious, also allegedly influenced by people who haven't apparently influenced me because I seem to have thought of all I have and discovered and prefered what J have separately and differently from them, and can scarcely really ever find like minded people or anyone to understand me or where I feel understood. Though I have all these people who are said to have made me think a d feel like they do or something, I feel like a pariah, and likewise feel resentment about my being so cut off, unable to communicate well and only ever hearing about how if I even ever reveal my thoughts, suddenly I'm further exposed as indeed an oddball, so in real life I remain very limited in ever sharing anything, even online for the most part because the responses have been consistently undesirable. I suppose my needs are being met by blurring things out here and there, mostly to myself, but I doubt anyone would find solipsistic existential isolation to be ideal or what I would have wanted.
Maybe one of these hypnotist people can somehow get me to feel differently. I feel like people are nice and like me, but that I'm not able to communicate with them and I don't really end up desiring those interactions so I don't feel like I like people too much ever, which is sad too, yet I care about people, wish them well, and try to help them and advise them when I can and for their benefit, even though I condider them far from being very palatable, enjoyable, likeable, I never feel like I have fun derived from anyone, it is always me being fun and having fun and making things fun for others, I see them laughing and enjoying themsrlves in response to my humor and silliness and animation, but that is all I get from them, I feel like I maybe never get any enjoyment from them or much stimulation, I have to do it all myself. Maybe there is a psychological term for all that.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Locked-in_syndrome
https://www.goodtherapy.org/blog/Indica ... -Anhedonia
Anyway, I'm pretty cheerful, I think, regardless of any of the weirdness.
I also feel like people these days especially are weird in certain ways, like they are very busy and not very curious, like they've made up their minds somehow or closed off, and I have made up my mind but I don't feel like I'm as lacking in interest and curiousity, like the impression I get from others I notice in the world, I scarcely get the impression anyone is as curious as I am or as thoughtful about anything, they just seem to want to quickly be done with thinking about things, maybe it is pragmatism and also that they don't enjoy thinking or think in the same way, which for me is a creative process. Who knows if this unconscious thing exists, is structured like a language, and everyone has it, and everyone who has one has it structured like a language? Like, what if mine doesn't exist or operate like this or like it does for others? What if that is why no one seems to understand me?
That is why this topic is important to me too.