Suicide

[atreestump]

This is perhaps one of the hardest topics in philosophy. After reading the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy, I concluded I am Libertarian on this matter. Suicide is morally permissible because individuals enjoy a right to suicide. (It does not of course follow that suicide is necessarily rational or prudent.) but I am not sure about the non-intervention aspect, it depends on the situation and how limited my understanding of another's suffering is I suppose.

I will say I am against the state permitting or criminalising suicide, but suicide may be honourable, a means to overcome unimaginable suffering in either a rational or irrational state of mind.

The question of right to suicide and the sanctity of life is very difficult to frame - define 'living' first of all, because Persistent Vegetative States don't fall into what I call 'alive'.

It's a grim as hell topic, but one that opens up interesting questions and answers, it also intersects science with philosophy.

[Whisper]

The question of right to suicide and the sanctity of life is very difficult to frame - define 'living' first of all, because Persistent Vegetative States don't fall into what I call 'alive'.

First of all why not? What do you call alive? I see a biologically receptive aspect to humans which also exists in persistent vegetative states. I just think there is more to human existence.

I personally disagree. Assisted suicide is permissible for me, but otherwise I think that institutional help is a good thing and stems from a more basic act that would occur regardless of the law (in tribal communities, for example).

[atreestump]

I'm referring to someone like Terri Schiavo. I'm all for assisted suicide as long as it's in the interest of the one who is yet to die. How that can be sorted out I don't know. Being only bodily functions with no self preservation, or no possibility of returning to consciousness is not 'alive' to me.

[Whisper]

I'm referring to someone like Terri Schiavo. I'm all for assisted suicide as long as it's in the interest of the one who is yet to die. How that can be sorted out I don't know. Being only bodily functions with no self preservation, or no possibility of returning to consciousness is not 'alive' to me.


Broadly speaking, self preservation or reproduction its the only function necessary.

I think the idea of criminalizing it is pretty outdated, and generally requiring care for the suicidal seems to be the dominant perspective in first world western countries.

Edit: I don't think a conscious, able human being should take their own life. I still think that the idea of "committing" suicide comes from Catholic Moralism, and doesn't stand up.

[atreestump]

True, being biologically alive is alive, but a life worth living?

The deontic version of suicide looks into whether suicide should be considered a rational option, then you have to ask how it can be rational, taking into account cognitive and interest factors, possible future outcomes etc. What if an able bodied human being is in such an oppressive situation that they would be better off? I recently read a few stories about transgendered people being sent to prison and they commited suicide to avoid rape.

There's an old joke where a Scotsman is going to be made into a boat, so he pokes holes in himself to render the 'boat' useless.

[Whisper]

In many instances life can feel that way itself. Especially as a trans person. But we cannot possibly truly take into account those factors, they are beyond our own reach. Therefore I can't rationalize that, and I also withdraw my judgement. Suicide is a tragedy. Who is to say they are better off or not? The person could after they have survived most likely.

I stand by my earlier statement.

[atreestump]

I gave that as an example to show where institutional help does not even begin to occur. Who knows, which is why I'm libertarian on this matter.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Whisper]

I am claiming on the contrary, that intervention to prevent it is is a good action to be taken by the state, authority, or just general society. This requires treatment. Society isn't able to solve the problem in that example. But I am suggesting they should be willing to. Whether they treat it or not has no bearing on whether or not the person will successfully kill themselves in that instance. The suicide was immediately resultant. I am talking about suicide preventation, generally.

[atreestump]

If human life is sacred, would you say that killing in self defence is rational?

I think intervention is a good move, but on the other hand, I can also see good in projects like Dignitas.

I guess the worst outcome of 'legalising' suicide, is that people might kill themselves because society isn't caring enough for vulnerable people.

[kFoyauextlH]

So, I found a thread where I can make a conversational style post that is shorter than many of my others. Also, you're both around, though I'm not sure if Whisper has been using this forum site, as it is practically the only one I use, at least for the most part.

So have any of your views shifted at all on this topic since you last discussed it here? What were the shifts. Have you had close personal interactions with people who have ended their lives? I know recently a friend of yours was mentioned who had done that. In my case I found out about a classmate I knew as a little kid who did it in 2023 and it bothered me so much even though I barely ever communicated with them overall, but just having known her at all and having liked her, it makes me totally sick to find out that occurred.

So in 2017 it looked like you both thought s**c*de is alright. There are a lot of people who I wish would do it and would be thrilled to hear that they didn't need anyone else to dirty their hands and put an end to their destructive sprees, but those don't seem to be the ones who take care of business, and instead it seems to be mostly people who one might not think are capable of even making such a decision in their right mind.

I used to watch videos by a guy called MrCaringGuy who seems to be completely obsessed with people doing this and death in general, so used to make tribute videos reporting lots of s**c*d*s and some information around each and it was very satisfying, closed data sets, a story with a beginning, middle, and end, with nothing further to expect, one after another like in a factory on a conveyor belt. I got to study the faces of people eho do these things and whatever other data was involved, like their likely ethnicities and birthdays and methods. Now their videos might not be as straightforward as those older ones, all of which they took down, probably due to someone complaining and ruining all the fun and satisfaction for the living people like me, party poopers. He has so much stuff and has put so much work into it that he should really put it back up. Those videos are like treasures to me, I'd ask for all of them for a private collection of that morbid but not graphic stuff. I seemed well pleased at the mass death during Covid with the idea that perhaps at least some of those people I have no idea about were evil, but in the case of the people of G*z* today, I think they are all good and far more likely to be simple, honest, innocent, and good, than the modern wackos from the horrific monster culture of the places working to kill them, and especially Iz which seems to be downright demonic in how messed up their culture and people are in comparison and as I've read about them and even seen them behaving in real life, while I've mainly only seen much better behaviour coming from the G*z* people and their culture, like day and night. Even so, those children being made to suffer and whose lives are being destroyed and their families torn apart by their wholly vile enemies are supposedly reporting a desire to join their lost loved ones, their mothers and fathers and brothers and sisters, rather than to suffer like that.

Meanwhile, we have snobs who are just bored and mentally ill k*lling themselves for what seems to me to be bullsh*t reasoning, and not even doing something worthwhile with their living corpses by making their death meaningful by helping the living and those in need with it, because what, they are still afraid they might get k*lled, even if they are going to k*ll themselves? It sounds totally stupid to me. If they are going to do it, why not take some of the worst sh*tbags ruining our lives with them, so we might celebrate their stupidity in k*lling themselves while doing something useful first, or doing it until they get taken down, so not cutting short the benefit until they are cut down, and not doing it in a foolish way that makes the benefit to us as brief as possible? Yet, they never seem to do anything well or right, boohoo, then they just make a bunch of people sad, so sort of losery, no offense, and their best defense is that they really weren't able to think straight.

So, my sh*t takes as usual are:

1. S**c*d* is jerkish, people should just die.

2. S**c*d* would be great if annoying people would just get to it already.

3. I wouldn't want anyone I like to do it, but I'd like those who do it more if they always coupled it with as extensive beneficial actions as possible, like making the world a better place, including by potentially taking out as many problematic types causing massive problems, as much as possible and non-stop, because they are fine with dying apparently abd not chickens like me and maybe others.

4. They are likely going to legalize s**cid* and promote it a lot, and basically coerce and pressure and trick people into doing it, so its extremely bad and people should vehemently be opposed to the idea being normalized and stigma being removed from it, instead, the people who want to make it a fun thing to do one weekend should be taken out as soon as possible, "but I don't want to die! I want the mentally ill to be given machines they can enter on a whim when they fancy doing so in order to gas themselves!", gosh, the creeps that exist out there.

I don't like mental problems but I still want people to figure out solutions and get help, the people I want dead are the psychopaths and people who are t*rrorizing the whole world constantly, the rich ones and the poor ones alike, whoever goes around being super evil and terrible, that is who I think should be given every exit out of life, not really anyone or anything else, because the stupid and insane may need to be protected even from themselves.

Thus conclude my sh*t takes:





For all I know, I could be dreaming and somewhere I'm in a vegetative state, and this life is all in my mind and like a dream anyway, so I guess I would not feel fine ending a life even if the sicko doctors kept insisting that there is no hope for the vegetative body of someone. In just about all cases I am for myself against any kind of direct k*lling, especially of people, but I eat all kinds of food and do all sorts of things and also want lots and lots of people to die and be killed if they seem evil to me, and I want the good to live well and forever.

"
S**cide is the 10th leading cause of death worldwide,[3][6] accounting for approximately 1.5% of total deaths.[8] In a given year, this is roughly 12 per 100,000 people.[6] Though s**c*d*s resulted in 828,000 deaths globally in 2015, an increase from 712,000 deaths in 1990, the age-standardized death rate decreased by 23.3%.[17][18] By gender, s**c*d* rates are generally higher among men than women, ranging from 1.5 times higher in the developing world to 3.5 times higher in the developed world; in the Western world, non-fatal s**c*d* attempts are more common among young people and women.[19] S**c*d* is generally most common among those over the age of 70; however, in certain countries, those aged between 15 and 30 are at the highest risk.[1] Europe had the highest rates of s**c*d* by region in 2015.[20] There are an estimated 10 to 20 million non-fatal attempted s**c*d*s every year.[21] Non-fatal s**c*d* attempts may lead to injury and long-term disabilities.[19] The most commonly adopted method of s**c*d* varies from country to country and is partly related to the availability of effective means.[22] Assisted s**c*d*, sometimes done when a person is in severe pain or facing an imminent death, is legal in many countries and increasing in numbers.[23][24]

Views on s**c*de have been influenced by broad existential themes such as religion, honor, and the meaning of life.[25][26] The Abrahamic religions traditionally consider s**c*de as an offense towards God due to belief in the sanctity of life.[27] During the samurai era in Japan, a form of s**c*de known as seppuku (腹切り, harakiri) was respected as a means of making up for failure or as a form of protest.[28] S**c*de and attempted s**c*de, while previously illegal, are no longer so in most Western countries.[29] It remains a criminal offense in some countries.[30] In the 20th and 21st centuries, s**c*de has been used on rare occasions as a form of protest; it has also been committed while or after murdering others, a tactic that has been used both militarily and by terrorists.[31]
"

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_methods

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC2649482/

This can show the impact of culture and what ends up promoted somehow within a culture or normalized or available.

The religions, like the ones that are around now, are all mainly against it.

Omg! I just saw the first age verification stuff that I've ever seen and they are asking for crazily invasive stuff, the best being the "credit card", but also terribly untrustworthy! Other things they are asking are for photos and picture I.D., it is horrible!

A big part of this is to scan and track people over G*z* stuff and to collect dirt on them too, this is hideous. No, killing ourselves shouldn't be fine and dandy, not us, but them, all of them, always. They want to make things like this:



The song in the background:

"
@911ruinedbrendanfraserscar5
6 years ago
Once again I'm in trouble with my only friend
She is papering the window panes
She is putting on a smile
Living in a glass house
Once again packed like frozen food and battery hens
Think of all the starving millions
Don't talk politics and don't throw stones
Your royal highness's
Well of course I'd like to sit around and chat
Well of course I'd like to stay and chew the fat
Well of course I'd like to sit around and chat
But someone's listening in
Once again we are hungry for a lynching
That's a strange mistake to make
You should turn the other cheek
Living in a glass house
Well of course I'd like to sit around and chat
Well of course I'd like to stay and chew the fat
Well of course I'd like to sit around and chat
Only only only only only only only only only only
There's someone listening in
"



"
@Minebot45
8 years ago
"The Quietus ads for tinnitus, which attempts to emulate it throughout the whole goddamn ad. Lord knows why - if you have tinnitus, you already know what the hell it sounds like; if you don't have it, you're not the one buying Quietus. And it doesn't help that the product's name is a euphemism for s**c*d* in Hamlet, and was the name of a s**c*de pill in Children of Men." - TV Tropes, "Advertising / Horrible"
"



"
@aFoxyFox.
0 seconds ago
Sick effs. This is harming the most vulnerable people instead of helping people, it is obviously the wealthy people who want to normalize killing people by convincing themselves to do it, not accounting for all the coercion and mental tricks involved to urge the mentally ill and vulnerable people to do it. Yuck.
"